Hopbot log for 2009-06-04 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2009-06-04:

[8:21] <hannesw> I'm thinking about what companion application to choos for the helma-ng 0.4 release.
[8:22] <hannesw> for 0.3, it was the demo app and then wiki-ng as a proof of concept.
[8:23] <hannesw> for 0.4, I think it might be either to extend wiki-ng into a real wiki
[8:23] <hannesw> or maybe do something with live updates via polling + cometd
[8:24] <hannesw> or maybe port/implement snowy: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/tomboy-note-app-gains-web-sync-showcases-power-of-open-web.ars
[8:31] <simono> i would do smth web-y and understandable... like you said: wiki or snowy
[8:31] <simono> and no framework is complete withouth a blogging app
[8:32] <hannesw> ok... we might extend wiki-ng to a bliki (add blogging functionality)
[8:32] <hannesw> so you're saying cometd + long polling isn't weby or understandable?
[8:33] <hannesw> you might be right, but it's a hot feature...
[8:33] <simono> yes
[8:33] <simono> hm, well maybe i'm missing out.. and everybody will use it next month
[8:34] <simono> what kind of app would you do with long polling?
[8:35] <hannesw> well, i've been playing with etherpad.com a bit, and this I think I got infected...
[8:35] <simono> most webdevs probably now how to build a simple blog / wiki in their fav framework - so imo it's good to show how easily this can be done with helma ;)
[8:37] <simono> they do long polling? hm.. at least firebug shows me requests with "longpolling" as uriparams
[8:37] <hannesw> that's how they do instant updates of changes
[8:37] <hannesw> http://etherpad.com/mphP3h8qnz
[8:39] <simono> maybe you should do a polling, so i can have a look at what it does ;)
[8:41] <simono> never done a real-time-web-app. i would probably have one flash-obj with TCP to server and relay everyting realtime through there
[8:41] <hannesw> no! please!
[8:41] <hannesw> why would you use flash when you can use standard html/http?
[8:42] <simono> :) i don't like flash either, but http can't give me a connection so...
[8:42] <simono> i'll look into some cometd code, i no nothing about it
[8:42] <hannesw> well, that's why you use long polling and cometd.
[8:42] <simono> ^^ know
[8:42] <hannesw> you just need the client to initiate the connection.
[8:43] <simono> doesnt fit my brain. so apache has to keep one connection open for me this whole time?
[8:43] <hannesw> beneath that, it's just the ordinary tcp connection you want.
[8:43] <hannesw> no, you don't use apache, you use jetty
[8:43] <hannesw> jetty/cometd
[8:44] <simono> that troubled me... apache running out of threads if connections are so long
[8:46] <hannesw> well, with helma 1, jetty will run happily on port 80 using apache commons daemon jsvc.
[8:46] <hannesw> and we'll implement that for helma ng, too.
[8:46] <hannesw> so there's no more reason to have apache in between there.
[8:48] <simono> afaik we are using apache in between to do rewrites / redirects and user-permissions since it's "easier| to configure
[8:49] <hannesw> you can still do that.
[8:49] <simono> but i'm all for jetty!
[8:49] <hannesw> it's not that we're making it impossible to write a simple web app, or deploy helma with apache
[8:50] <hannesw> it's just that this cometd/long polling stuff is the future of the web, so we _must_ support it.
[8:50] <hannesw> well, future... it's actually the present already.
[8:50] <simono> of course.. don't misunderstand me, i think it's great we have this feature... people are talking about it. so +1
[8:52] <simono> i just haven't seen many longpolling apps.. so if the first helma-ng app i'll inspect is like that, it'll look broken to me :) on the other hand: showing off sexy features is a probably a good way to attract newcomers
[8:53] <hannesw> ok, I think we should distinguish between demo apps and what I might call accompanying apps
[8:53] <hannesw> +1 that we need simple demo apps that do simple things like blogging, wiki.
[8:54] <simono> distinction sounds good
[8:54] <hannesw> but for development, you also need apps that challange the framework.
[8:54] <hannesw> and I don't think this needs to be bundled with the release or anything.
[8:56] <hannesw> wondering if we _should_ bundle wiki-ng with helma-ng?
[8:56] <hannesw> http://hensotest.appspot.com/
[8:56] <hannesw> It's actually a nice little demo app
[8:59] <simono> oh i like it
[9:00] <simono> bundling very simple example apps is a plus in my book
[9:00] <hannesw> yep, agreed.
[9:00] <simono> (also they are elaborate dev/unit-tests)
[9:00] <hannesw> so maybe leave wiki-ng as is, or only minor improvements, and make it a bundled demo app
[9:02] <simono> okay. and the ccompanying apps can be more complex and show off ng-awesomeness
[12:09] <simono> jetty that supports long polling is not yet in helmang, right? did a quick trac-search and only found open ticket
[13:45] <hannesw> simono: jetty 6 supports long-polling without holding a thread, and that's the version helma ng uses.
[13:45] <hannesw> the feature is called continuation in jetty
[13:45] <simono> ok thx for info, was misled by ticket
[13:45] <hannesw> it's just that helma webapp framework doesn't support this yet.
[13:48] <simono> mh.. been reading up on comet-techniques, still not convinced.. seems only do.jo supports this very well on the clientside
[13:48] <simono> nevertheless i'm looking forward to trying this out with ng, that's why i asked

 

 

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