Hopbot log for 2008-09-29 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2008-09-29:

[11:32] <Helma0> anyone know where I can find more info on doing client-side usage of helma?
[11:32] <Helma0> kind of like kurt / chopper.. or is that the best that exists ..
[11:34] <Helma0> but rather just run its from a jar/applet
[11:34] <Helma0> is that possible?
[12:00] <zumbrunn> Helma0, anything is possible, I guess
[12:00] <zumbrunn> but Helma certainly isn't intended for anything like that
[12:01] <zumbrunn> one *could possibly* somehow write an applet that gets permission and installs all kind of things on the client
[12:01] <zumbrunn> and then runs it
[12:02] <zumbrunn> kurt/chopper is all that exists for bringing the helma concepts to the client, as far as I'm aware
[12:03] <zumbrunn> plus Junction, which integrates Google Gears
[12:09] <Helma0> just noticed there isn't much to getting it to the client side.. you just download a single archive and run it with java
[12:09] <Helma0> so connecting that to an applet should be cake.. not talking about installing too much extra
[12:09] <Helma0> besides the assumed jvm
[12:10] <zumbrunn> what exactly would you do with it on the client?
[12:10] <zumbrunn> run it as a local server?
[12:11] <mindlike> in theory, turn browser pages into server instances :)
[12:11] <zumbrunn> but then you would need jetty as well
[12:11] <zumbrunn> not just the helma.jar
[12:11] <zumbrunn> right?
[12:11] <mindlike> well i meant a super jara
[12:12] <mindlike> er jar
[12:12] <zumbrunn> ok
[12:12] <zumbrunn> basically what is in the lib dir now
[12:13] <mindlike> oh I wondered that
[12:13] <mindlike> i noticed the svn directions are just about that simple
[12:14] <mindlike> you checkout, ant generates a single helma.jar.. is that a standalone jar?
[12:14] <mindlike> like I could deploy that jar
[12:14] <zumbrunn> it has dependencies... all the jars in the lib directory
[12:16] <zumbrunn> http://github.com/hns/helma-ng/tree/master/lib
[12:16] <mindlike> so about ~5mb of jar
[12:17] <mindlike> i don't think chopper/kurt is quite what I had in mind
[12:18] <zumbrunn> with helma-ng, it comes to about 2.3 MB
[12:19] <mindlike> it'd just be cool if there was a way to bootstrap it from the browser, rather than a zip file and a couple of mouse clicks
[12:19] <mindlike> like imagine a widget that goes, would you like to enable helma.. and in the background helma server is installed.. and can be deactivated (purged from dom/jvm)
[12:19] <mindlike> sort of thing
[12:20] <zumbrunn> it would be possible
[12:20] <mindlike> and design it in a way so an initial footprint could be loaded and other jars pulled down silently later
[12:20] <mindlike> loaded quickly
[12:20] <zumbrunn> but I never heard of somebody actually doing this
[12:21] <zumbrunn> it's the kind of thing that sun's webstart does, if I'm not mistaken
[12:22] <mindlike> what if you just had a jar of all the lib dir and you accessed the helma jar in it
[12:22] <zumbrunn> and kind of what they do here: http://wua.la/
[12:22] <mindlike> or maybe just have multiple jar applet includes
[12:23] <mindlike> just curious if its a stretch or practically the same thing as running it with java -jar
[12:23] <mindlike> or start.sh
[12:24] <mindlike> what is wua.la doing?
[12:25] <zumbrunn> I don't know exactly, but they basically hav an applet that you need to trust, which then downloads and installs other jars and runs them
[12:26] <mindlike> ah yes so webstart is more like air
[12:26] <mindlike> imo
[12:26] <mindlike> yeah it launches in a pure java window it seems
[12:26] <zumbrunn> wua.la isn't using webstart
[12:26] <mindlike> you hear of rhinohide?
[12:26] <zumbrunn> they have written their own alternative
[12:27] <zumbrunn> but webstart is similar, I believe
[12:27] <zumbrunn> nope, I didn't
[12:27] <mindlike> allows you to install java software from browser that doesn't depend on browser
[12:27] <mindlike> or something like that
[12:28] <mindlike> http://zelea.com/project/textbender/o/rhinohide/description.xht
[12:29] <mindlike> seems like there's a variety of methods for empowering js with java powers
[12:29] <mindlike> thats what sort of led me to helma.. except you guys are doing sort of the opposite but virtually what I need or close enough
[12:30] <zumbrunn> we do exactly what you need, except that it is the exact opposite ;-)
[12:32] <mindlike> so all the apps written in helma are in javascript, but output in javascript right?
[12:32] <mindlike> meaning they do this java mediation
[12:32] <mindlike> regardless of where (server/client)
[12:33] <zumbrunn> "output in javascript" ?
[12:33] <zumbrunn> not sure what you mean by that
[12:33] <mindlike> in xhtml
[12:33] <mindlike> not in java ui
[12:34] <mindlike> like the flow is js input .. java processing .. xhtml output
[12:34] <zumbrunn> at it's core, helma is really purely a server-side web framework
[12:34] <zumbrunn> normally, responding to http requests
[12:35] <zumbrunn> and of course, what the response is exactly, is app to the app
[12:35] <mindlike> because its endowed with so much server functionality right?
[12:35] <zumbrunn> and that apps code is written in javascript
[12:37] <zumbrunn> java just happens to be the implementation language
[12:37] <zumbrunn> plus that you can use any java libraries directly in your javascript scripts
[12:38] <mindlike> that is what I find curious
[12:38] <mindlike> help me understand this
[12:39] <zumbrunn> http://helma.zumbrunn.com/intro/javapackages
[12:39] <mindlike> is there an example of one of these running?
[12:39] <mindlike> so I can see practically how it works
[12:40] <mindlike> so yeah helma was designed in a classical server/client env to be the server role
[12:40] <zumbrunn> right
[12:40] <mindlike> and the code the client uses just happens to have js in it
[12:40] <mindlike> like the input code
[12:41] <zumbrunn> it may, but doesn't have to
[12:41] <zumbrunn> just like with any other server-side environment
[12:41] <mindlike> so in javascript I could say.. make a direct ssh connection to this server and get a txt file
[12:41] <mindlike> and the result will be via jetty/http
[12:41] <zumbrunn> the client-side js and server-side js are by default entirely independent of each other
[12:41] <mindlike> or something like that
[12:42] <mindlike> sorry to bug you much longer about this.. but my original q.. what are the hurdles to just making it an single jar and applet you see?
[12:43] <mindlike> I know you never imagined it being used that way so you just made it into a more standalone type of install/start
[12:43] <mindlike> its super easy too btw
[12:43] <zumbrunn> no idea, never tried that
[12:44] <zumbrunn> but you wouldn't need to anyway, since you would anyway need an applet or something that does the installing
[12:44] <zumbrunn> and that could just as well install several jars instead of one
[12:44] <mindlike> yeah you could parallel the start.bat
[12:44] <mindlike> right?
[12:44] <mindlike> in theory at least
[12:45] <mindlike> btw - are jala modules going to port over easily to ng?
[12:45] <zumbrunn> if you want to look into this further, I suggest you look at helma-ng, not helma 1.6.x
[12:45] <mindlike> and I couldn't find too many examples of people using say like the bittorrent mod
[12:45] <zumbrunn> (which doesn't have a start.bat)
[12:45] <mindlike> because its leaner?
[12:45] <mindlike> simpler eh?
[12:45] <mindlike> k
[12:46] <zumbrunn> yes, it's closer to what you would need, I suspect
[12:48] <mindlike> once an application is loaded
[12:48] <mindlike> it can still communicate with the app service it started from?
[12:48] <mindlike> like via ajax
[12:48] <mindlike> oh wait duh thats why its running as an application server
[12:49] <zumbrunn> it runs on the server-side, which renders that thought mute, I think
[12:50] <mindlike> how does helma achieve js-java communication?
[12:51] <zumbrunn> it's built in to rhino
[12:51] <mindlike> and what browsers have rhino?
[12:51] <mindlike> or thats a java thing?
[12:51] <zumbrunn> http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/ScriptingJava.html
[12:51] <zumbrunn> none
[12:52] <zumbrunn> but none need it, since helma runs on the server-side :-)
[12:52] <mindlike> so rhino is just java with a javascript programming interface
[12:52] <zumbrunn> and in your scenario, the rhino jar would be one of the jars your applet installs
[12:53] <zumbrunn> rhino is an implementation of javascript written in java
[12:53] <zumbrunn> like spidermonkey, which is written in C
[12:53] <zumbrunn> both are mozilla projects
[12:54] <zumbrunn> (spidermonkey is the javascript engine in firefox)
[12:54] <mindlike> that is what rhinodoc.js does?
[12:55] <zumbrunn> nope, in helma-ng, the rhino jar is called js.jar
[12:56] <mindlike> is js.java in there too?
[12:57] <mindlike> heh back button
[12:58] <zumbrunn> http://mxr.mozilla.org/js/source/js/rhino/
[12:59] <zumbrunn> that's the source that builds the js.jar
[12:59] <mindlike> its just interesting they didn't intend that to be in the browser
[12:59] <mindlike> thanks for that like
[12:59] <zumbrunn> plus some patches that he=aven't gone into rhino cvs yet
[12:59] <zumbrunn> http://dev.helma.org/wiki/Rhino+Bugs+&+Patches/
[13:00] <mindlike> is that info in the docs?
[13:00] <mindlike> about js.jar
[13:00] <zumbrunn> originally, it was intended for use in a browser
[13:00] <zumbrunn> when netscape wanted to implement a version of Navigator in java
[13:01] <mindlike> ahh
[13:01] <mindlike> thats interesting.. and why did it get squashed?
[13:01] <mindlike> didn't javascript like originate near you guys?
[13:01] <mindlike> (i'm in los angeles)
[13:01] <zumbrunn> rumour has it, that they forgot to kill the rhino project when they killed the java-navigator project
[13:02] <zumbrunn> the web was born near here
[13:02] <zumbrunn> but javascript is the invention of Brendan Eich at Netscape
[13:03] <zumbrunn> (but is a trademark of Sun)
[13:03] <zumbrunn> (Brendan originally called it Mocha)
[13:04] <zumbrunn> http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/About/Web-en.html
[13:04] <mindlike> so rhino is coupled with jetty in helma?
[13:04] <mindlike> or thats just in the config parms
[13:04] <zumbrunn> helma is what brings them together, yes
[13:08] <mindlike> so helmaservlet sits inside of jetty
[13:08] <mindlike> and that calls rhino
[13:09] <zumbrunn> kind of
[13:09] <mindlike> so if you just wanted a lightweight webserver applet you'd just need jetty.jar, helma.jar, and rhino.jar :) ?
[13:10] <zumbrunn> for just a lightweight webserver applet you'd just need jetty.jar, really
[13:11] <mindlike> but rhino if you want to do java right?
[13:11] <mindlike> via js
[13:11] <zumbrunn> or if you want to do js at all
[13:14] <mindlike> ever use drupal?
[13:15] <zumbrunn> not myself, no
[13:16] <mindlike> oh, are jala modules planned to be ported?
[13:16] <mindlike> and are there examples of those being used.. in particular the bittorrent one
[13:16] <mindlike> seems like a cool extension but unused or maybe just internally somewhere
[13:17] <zumbrunn> I'm not aware of any public code that uses it
[13:18] <zumbrunn> the changes to port jala modules in general should be trivial
[13:18] <zumbrunn> so, not much porting needed
[13:19] <mindlike> so you think that torrent stuff is used/tested by someone at least?
[13:19] <mindlike> eh i'll just have to mess around with it
[13:19] <zumbrunn> it's definitely used
[13:19] <mindlike> about it see if this applet idea works
[13:19] <zumbrunn> I just can't point you to any public code
[13:20] <mindlike> eh thats fine, just wasn't sure if it was in there for promotional reasons ;)
[13:20] <mindlike> or practical
[13:20] <zumbrunn> definitely practical :-)
[13:33] <mindlike> heh
[13:34] <mindlike> my host keeps killing helma-ng .. saying virt mem lim reached
[13:34] <zumbrunn> I thought you wanted to run it on the client? ;-)
[13:35] <mindlike> good point
[13:35] <mindlike> i was just trying to test applets on a remote .html
[13:35] <mindlike> i guess I can run it locally tho
[13:36] <zumbrunn> or get another hosting provider
[13:36] <zumbrunn> interesting that they do that, though
[13:36] <zumbrunn> I wonder what the default memory settings of helma-ng are
[13:36] <mindlike> dreamhost
[13:36] <mindlike> heard of them?
[13:36] <zumbrunn> maybe you could tweak it somehow
[13:37] <mindlike> well its on my own install of java
[13:37] <mindlike> but not sure if java has settings like that
[13:37] <zumbrunn> yes, they have a pretty good reputation
[13:37] <mindlike> seems to be a system msg
[13:37] <mindlike> not sure tho
[13:40] <mindlike> can you tell ant to ignore javac version incompatibility?
[13:40] <zumbrunn> no idea
[13:41] <mindlike> says [javac] Compliance level '1.4' is incompatible with target level '1.5'. A compliance level '1.5' or better is required
[13:41] <mindlike> i installed openjdk
[13:53] <mindlike> did you say trimpath uses helma with gears
[13:54] <zumbrunn> trimpath junction does, yes
[13:54] <mindlike> i thought i remember seeing something like local helma running with some flex code and gears perhaps
[13:54] <mindlike> so trimpath's unique use of helma is with gears also?
[13:55] <mindlike> is helma-ng going to work with gears?
[13:55] <zumbrunn> I don't see why it wouldn't
[13:56] <mindlike> oh you just add it as another data source?
[13:57] <mindlike> trimpath hasn't updated in almost a year?
[13:59] <mindlike> so wait there's openmocha, axiom stack, trimpath
[13:59] <mindlike> all trying to do different things with helma?
[14:00] <zumbrunn> yes
[14:01] <mindlike> my idea is more like a cdn
[14:01] <mindlike> content delivery network.. strange to think of helma as a candidate for such a thing.. or also for p2p
[14:02] <mindlike> once helma and jetty are up you said other classes are easy to drip in right?
[14:03] <mindlike> so if i wanted to put in a jxta class that should be feasible
[14:03] <zumbrunn> yes, just drop the jar in to the lib/ext/ directory
[14:05] <mindlike> thanks for the chat!
[14:05] <mindlike> i'll keep you posted as i experiment
[14:05] <mindlike> looks exciting
[14:07] <mindlike> oh is it true trimpath is a year old since last code commits?
[14:07] <mindlike> or am I looking in wrong place
[14:09] <zumbrunn> you are probably looking in the right place
[14:12] <mindlike> u heard of this?
[14:12] <mindlike> http://yacy.net/
[14:14] <zumbrunn> don't think I have
[14:14] <zumbrunn> looks interesting
[14:18] <mindlike> yeah i just told my local one to index wikipedia
[14:18] <mindlike> it said one sec
[14:19] <zumbrunn> lol
[15:02] <Helma2> hi! any tips for things to look out before/after updating java on mac os 10.5?
[15:03] <zumbrunn> no guarantees, but I haven't noticed any trouble
[15:04] <Helma2> cool! thanks :)
[15:14] <Helma2> see ia
[16:13] <decke> zumbrunn: great picture from the OpenExpo :o)
[16:13] <zumbrunn> ha.... yes, right next to freebsd :-)
[16:14] <decke> i hope you spend a nice time there...
[16:15] <decke> do you have that picture a bit bigger? would be a perfect wallpaper i think....
[16:15] <zumbrunn> lol
[16:15] <zumbrunn> let me check...
[16:20] <zumbrunn> http://zumbrunn.com/static/mochazone/openexpohelma-large.png
[16:20] <zumbrunn> viola
[16:20] <zumbrunn> voila
[16:21] <decke> ah great - thanks!
[16:23] <zumbrunn> I complained that they shouldn't put UNIX-like on the freebsd poster
[16:23] <zumbrunn> linux is unix-like
[16:23] <zumbrunn> freebsd is "based on bsd-unix"
[16:24] <zumbrunn> if you can make the claim, why not use it :-)
[16:25] <decke> works great as a wallpaper i must say....
[16:26] <decke> years without an wallpaper - just solid blue - and now FreeBSD and Helma at once ...
[16:26] <zumbrunn> the freebsd guys were handing out Kambly cookies
[16:26] <zumbrunn> http://www.kambly.ch/index.cfm/fuseaction/show/path/1-372-278.htm
[16:27] <zumbrunn> asking everybody "Do you accept cookies?"
[16:27] <decke> *g* geeks...
[16:27] <zumbrunn> ;-)
[16:28] <decke> sounds like a funny day...
[16:28] <zumbrunn> yep
[16:29] <zumbrunn> funny how people still react to javascript on the server-side
[16:29] <zumbrunn> like "Why would you do this?"
[16:29] <decke> that's never gonna change i think...
[16:30] <zumbrunn> and others almost start jumping up and down from excitement, because they didn't know such a project existed
[16:31] <zumbrunn> the "why would you do this" crowed leaves impressed and interested as well, though
[16:31] <zumbrunn> crowd, even
[16:31] <decke> obviously there have to be a lot of javascript guys out there because of that AJAX trend
[16:33] <decke> i just wonder that nobody know's javascript on the server side...
[16:33] <decke> but everybody know JS "oh that's that thing in your browser"
[16:34] <decke> now running twice as fast with Chrome

 

 

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